Official Luthiers Forum!

I know that we luthiers tend to think of this place as our own little secluded clubhouse. Where we can tell all of our secrets in privacy. But the truth is we are watched many non luthier, vendors and others visit without registering and just lurk in the back ground.

About 6 weeks ago I sold a local independent guitar reseller 2 Stage 5 cases. I sold them to him at 30%below MSRP. We had talked for over an hour about luthierie and music and all sorts of stuff and I gave him the forum address and suggest he visit us some time.

Well, in a very resent post on Access cases the approx. confidencial wholesale price of access cases was posted. Five min. later I get a angry email about the profit I made on the sell of those 2 cases.

I’m not angry with anyone over this. The truth is I made the same mistake several months ago, and Tim McKnight politely asked me to remove the price and I did. I pray that I did not cause Tim or anyone any problems with a client.

My main point is that we must keep in the back of our minds that we builders are not the only ones on the forum and what we post is read by many others outside the luthierie community.

To add to your thought Michael:
The vendors that I am set up with for "luthier"pricing, or "wholesale" pricing, call it what ever you want, expect that I keep confidential the price breaks that they give to me.
Its hard enough to make money building guitars as it is, the ability to purchase certain parts or supplies at a discounted rate helps. I thank the vendors for doing this. And I respect there request to keep confidential what they ask I do.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I surely agree with this policy as well but what I can't understand Michael, is why your case purchaser doesn't expect that you should be able to make a profit. Does he think everything he buys is at cost? John How38846.6028009259

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

He knew I would make a profit just was expecting not that much

Michael you are correct!!!

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Well what you make on a case - and a case's current market value are 2 different things, unless your prices reflect a marked increase above market value - what you make is your business IMO.
Just because you are offered a marked discount on a particular case by your supplier - probably in return for your business over the entire span of your dealings, or to encourage further business, as an incentive, I dont really think you are obligated to pass on the discount down the line - if you dont feel you need to.

I have no say how much AC tonewoods made on my last purchase, mabye 100% mabye 200% mabye 50% mabye 25%. All I know is that I agreed to a price which I thought fair - I pay it.
If I knew they made 500% on my purchase - I wouldnt get mad at them!
Thats what commerce is.
Charliewood

[QUOTE=charliewood]   If I knew they made 500% on my purchase - I wouldnt get mad at them!
Thats what commerce is.
Charliewood[/QUOTE]

So,Charliewood, I've got this nice piece of Bazillion, or is that Brazilian, for sale....

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Paul Bordeaux
http://www.bordeauxinlay.com

My post really was not meant to have all that much to do with the disgruntled customer. Rather more to help everyone realize that, which I did not till this month, that perspective clients are checking us out here with out us even knowing. plus the fact that we agreed to keep confidential pricing confidential and to do so means no public publishing of that pricing. When we post that is exactly what we do.

It was just an accident that my customer was on site at the time and even read the post. but by the same token it was not an accident that my most recent commission I received just happened to find this forum and just happened to read many of my posts over the past year form the archive. In fact he told me he had researched me on the forum for weeks before he even sent me an inquiry.

I was just talking to one of the vendors that many of us use. We were talking pricing a bit and he asked me to keep that info to myself. At first I was almost offended that he had to ask that but then realized that it would only take one person to say "look at the great deal I got at XXX" to really put him in a bind.
Yes Michael, I agree with you that pricing should be kept to ourselves. It's not something that everyone should have access to and on a forum like this EVERYONE with a computer potentially has access to it.

[QUOTE=1bordeaux] [QUOTE=charliewood]   If I knew they made 500% on my purchase - I wouldnt get mad at them!
Thats what commerce is.
Charliewood[/QUOTE]

So,Charliewood, I've got this nice piece of Bazillion, or is that Brazilian, for sale.... [/QUOTE]

How does the saying go "you make money when you buy, not when you sell...."?   

So you are probably out of luck on that.... at least for now... give it a few years though... who knows where brw will be in the future.   
Brock Poling38846.686712963

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] "you make money when you buy, not when you sell...."?   
[/QUOTE]


Ohoooooo So true

Michael,

Absolutely true! And very timely, thanks for reminding us all. If everyone posted like they thought potential customers were watching, or for those of us without customers, like our Mom or kids were watching, then I am sure most would think twice before posting anything crude or inflamatory. The OLF is a extremely valuable resource, and a great opportunity to network with others. But it can also let folks know who they don't want to network with.

Jeff

In general, it would be a good idea to keep certain other costs hidden here. I am thinking of another case company, Ameritage, that I do business with. They have a list price which is all they advertise on their website, and then they have pricing for dealers and luthiers, and by volume. It's probably smart to not post how much we pay for a case from them here, since like everyone has mentioned, there are those who are our potential customers who will see it and then get bent out of shape at what we charge.
Now, personally I'm stupid enough to charge my cost on those things, but I don't say that nor do I broadcast it really.
Should I have said that?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] "you make money when you buy, not when you sell...."?   
[/QUOTE]

Tell that to my wife when I go to the tool store.

The truth of the matter is that we share information. The email adress of the vender was also posted and anyone can send an email and pose as a builder and get the info, it's just not as readily available, almost though.

Wisdom is the key.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE]"you make money when you buy, not when you sell...."? [/QUOTE]

I thought you lost money when you buy AND when you sell?

Boy! Have I been doing it wrong! This is such a great place to learn. "Luthiery is Life", I guess! Thanks guys!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

The truth of the matter is that no one minds if a seller makes a litlle profit unless its that one buying it! Some people don't take in consideration time and money invested and years of research and get offended if you make a profit.

we can always work things out amongst ourselves by PM and like Michael said "keep it in the back of our minds" and be sensitive to whatever we post!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I have yet to sell a single guitar, but certain business principles ring true in any industry. So here's a suggestion: Charge your clients for the things you do, and don't nickle and dime them on the rest.

When I started practicing law 13 years ago, a wise and seasoned lawyer told me:

"You know what clients complain about the most in their bills? Copying costs. You can send a client a $70,000 bill for 200 hours of your time at $350 an hour, and they don't say a word about it, but they will scream to high heaven over the 35 cents/page copying charge. They know your time is worth what you are charging, but they know the copies aren't. They don't want to feel like you are charging them more than something is worth. Don't nickel and dime your clients on copying and faxes. If you want to make $400/hour, just charge $400/hour."

That's the best piece of business advice I ever got. Don't try to sneak profits from your clients. Be up front with them about what you want to earn on a job, and if they still hire you, they will never be upset about how much you are making.

Guitars are no different. If you want to make an extra $200 per guitar, then just charge an extra $200 per guitar. If you think the cases will help them sell, then up the price of the guitar again by your cost on the case (plus the $200) and tell the customer you provide a "free" case with every guitar.

But if you try to get the extra couple hundred bucks by secretly charging a 300%+ markup on accessories, eventually your customers will find out about it, and then they will wonder whether they overpaid on anything else.

I often am asked at knife shows for "the best price" on a piece. I tell them the best price is marked on it. I don't discount or lower prices for two reasons: One....if you lower the asking price you are telling the customer it was over priced to start with and two....lower the price for one person and you've insulted all the rest who paid full price...bad karma...

Very sound advice, Kelby. I've been told that, as a cabinetmaker, often the problem is people not charging for thier overhead. They charge the hourly wage they want to make and cost on their materials and go broke. People don't notice that you need to maintain a $20000 shop while you're working.

The advice for that situation was simple, though. They said charge 30% on all materials, because aquiring materials takes time as well and most people don't realize that they spent two hours at the wood lot or an hour at the hardware store and didn't get paid for it.

This is from a cabinetmakers presentation, but it applies as well to lutherie. Some customers, although rarely those who actually run their own businesses, understand the 'real' costs of things. You're not charging for a case. You're charging for a case, your time to order it and pick it up at the post office, storing it onsite, and the time you wasted shooting the #### with the customer instead of getting some other work done. And that's market value.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Bob, those are good points. I'm sure any of your customers would understand that your true cost for materials is not limited to your out-of-pocket purchase price, and that you need to recoup the other hidden costs too.

With guitar cases, if the true cost is a multiple of the Access price, then that is what people should charge. If not, then my suggestion is to keep the profit in the instrument.

[QUOTE=Kelby] Don't try to sneak profits from your clients.[/QUOTE]
Amen! This is annoying...handling charges. Yeah, handling my money! Look, ya gotta ship it, so ya gotta handle it. Just tell me what the product costs, and the ACTUAL shipping charges, and send it! Or, how about this--a magazine subscription for $xx.xx...hmm, not too bad...plus shipping of $x.xx. Plus shipping? Just tell me what it costs you to make and send the magazine. Shipping charges don't change as often as gas prices, so just tell me what it costs!

Look, I know these are small things, but you can see how annoyed I am, as a customer, by a business's unwillingness to be upfront about charges. It's definitely something to think about if you're on the selling end.

Larry,
Do you make knives as well? I had one made by my friend Seth Burton from Cosmo Knives on Saltspring Island
http://www.cosmoknives.com/


I love it!! Mine is the Dark Mammoth Ivory the other pictured is one I hadcommisioned for my Father in Law as a gift on year, my wife has a version of this model also.
I am thinking of getting him to make me some yew handled chisels and gouges next! Id love a link to some of your knives if you have a gallery!

As for the topic on hand - just to bring it back around, perhaps we should resist the urge to brag about amazing prices, and PM ea other with such details.
Cheers
Charlie

[QUOTE=CarltonM] [QUOTE=Kelby] Don't try to sneak profits from your clients.[/QUOTE]
Amen! This is annoying...handling charges. Yeah, handling my money! Look, ya gotta ship it, so ya gotta handle it. Just tell me what the product costs, and the ACTUAL shipping charges, and send it! Or, how about this--a magazine subscription for $xx.xx...hmm, not too bad...plus shipping of $x.xx. Plus shipping? Just tell me what it costs you to make and send the magazine. Shipping charges don't change as often as gas prices, so just tell me what it costs!

Look, I know these are small things, but you can see how annoyed I am, as a customer, by a business's unwillingness to be upfront about charges. It's definitely something to think about if you're on the selling end.[/QUOTE]


If I told you what the wholesale rate on magazine subscriptions are you would fall over dead. About 50% of titles are (nearly) pure profit for the subscription agent.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=CarltonM]
This is annoying...handling charges. Yeah, handling my money! Look, ya gotta ship it, so ya gotta handle it. Just tell me what the product costs, and the ACTUAL shipping charges, and send it! [/QUOTE]

Here's where we diverge on our thinking. If I am selling some wood to someone, I charge what I feel the value of the wood is, and I charge a shipping & handling fee. Usually, that's around $5 above the actual shipping cost. On top of selling the wood, I have the cost of a box, which can be pricey, and bubble-wrap, and shrink-wrap, and my gas to go to and from the post office. I also usually ship U.S. Priority Mail, which isn't cheap.
I know there are folks who think that's way too much to charge for shipping, but when you think about a 1st class 8.5x11 envelope with a few sheets of paper costs a couple bucks to mail, that heavy wood is discounted by the PO a lot. I'd rather see the shipping cost and the handling/packaging cost split from the wood than buried in the price.

Either way Carlton, they're gonna get your money...

...so if you buy wood from me in the future, just add $5 onto the price of the wood I have listed for each piece, and I won't charge the handling fee seperately.

Don Williams38847.7528240741

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."